Curse

Turbobusa · Apr 21, 2008, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Nerf stupid stuff first! For example,(...)shockwave/shadowstepping(...)

I just wanted to point out that the problem is shadowstepping, and not shockwave. Its only strength is to deal 3x damage, and not all in once. Is that game breaking? I don't think so.

Kyp Jade · Apr 21, 2008, 01:52 PM // 13:52

@ Lorekeeper
Power Lock just isnt that good of a pressure skill unless you hit exactly what you want to hit, 'every, single, time'. Its more of an LOL you have no channeling for 30 seconds. If you get word with it, its more of an LOL you have no WoH for 15 seconds. Which isnt game breaking, its barely playable since at best you will only hit 1s consistantly, and 3/4 if you have great ping. Considering that the prots that Im more concerned about targeting are 1/4 and 1/2, Ill stick with pleak.

Put it in context of an esurge bar. The entire point of playing energy denial is to deny them use of thier energy. Power lock has no home on that bar, it doesnt fit, his purpose isnt to go around targeting 1s cast skills and locking them down. His purpose is to deny a caster use of all his energy.

Lorekeeper · Apr 21, 2008, 02:48 PM // 14:48

I wasnt suggesting replacing Pleak with Plock. But replacing diversion with Plock.

[Esurge][Diversion][Shame][Power Leak][Power Drain][Shatter Enchantment][Inspired Enchantment][Death Pact Signet]

Becomes

[Esurge][Power Lock][Shame][Power Leak][Power Drain][Shatter Enchantment][Inspired Enchantment][Death Pact Signet]

And i wasnt discussing HA mesmers.

Kyp Jade · Apr 21, 2008, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Doesnt matter if you were discussing HA mesmers, power lock is power lock. And if diversion was nerfed I still wouldnt take power lock, its not reliable, its not shutdown. Its a crappy PD

Byron · Apr 21, 2008, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

If you get word with it, its more of an LOL you have no WoH for 15 seconds. Which isnt game breaking, its barely playable since at best you will only hit 1s consistantly, and 3/4 if you have great ping. (emphasis added)

I don't understand this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

But replacing diversion with Plock

I don't understand this. A potentially powerful skill, but having no diversion really hurts your pressure ability. Diversion is too useful, imo.

Hm - However, enemy midliners might not believe you don't have diversion, and they might sit their interrupts fruitlessly on you.

Kyp Jade · Apr 21, 2008, 04:24 PM // 16:24

If disabling a certain skill by interuption for 10-15 seconds was in any form something that wins the game, then PD would be the elite of choice either in GvG or in HA. In HA its the elite of choice in HA because of the ghostly hero, not because getting a PD on WoH wins you the game. PD is used because interupting the ghostly hero wins you the game. Things like Pblock are far more brutal in HA than PD is, but far less useful.

Now there are exceptions to that with PD, because you can take res sigs out of the picture for 10 seconds. P lock cant do that because its spells only. If plock was 20-30 seconds disable then I might use it, but never over diversion.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Apr 21, 2008, 05:11 PM // 17:11

PLock is kinda bad unless you hit it on recharge (which with people using 40/40 sets and fake casting isn't something you can do too consistently) and definitely not a replacement for Diversion.

The problem with interrupts in general is that they're for a big part ping and luck reliant (HCT triggers are for the most part random chance) whereas diversion always has a useful effect.

Interrupts like Power Leak and Power Drain and to a lesser extent Power Block are easier to use because you don't have to aim for a particular skill to get the desired effect.

Power Lock has some uses but is pretty much outshined by every other mesmer interrupt and really not worth the slot on most mesmer bars.

Lorekeeper · Apr 21, 2008, 05:16 PM // 17:16

PD is not used in GvG because its a bad elite for GvG mesmers, because while you might disable 1 interrupted skill you self blackout and are useless unless only using PD. And after a while you will run out of nrg.

The idea of power lock is premised on the fact that while diversion is clearly the more powerful skill in comparison to diversion (thats not whats being debated), how often during a match does a mesmer reap the benefits from its power while facing a very well organised and experienced team?

Then ask the question, IF i can disable WoH or RC with powerlock with some regularity (with the only defense vs powerlock being fast casts and bad ping), does that offer more to my team than when i have diversion?

Im not saying this is a blanket replacement for diversion for all teams. I just think some teams out there adopt a far more aggressive pressure style of play which would benefit greatly from a regular disabling of WoH and RC than what you get from getting those rare lucky diversions off. I find that the effect of diversion diminishes the higher the quality of teams involved, especially with some teams even packing power return on their midline paras who camp on mesmers using diversion.

Power lock not interrupting non-spell skills is not really that much of an issue, because you have a ranger and possibly cry of frustration on a para for those things.

I just think its an interesting alternative. Sure diversion is powerful, if you get a lucky disable of WoH or RC you can push very hard, get kills and maybe morale and positioning, maybe even a full backline wipe and push into a base and get some knights and BG. But depending on the team, even diversioning WoH or RC on the odd occasion is not enough to cause a drastic swing in the game... they just adopt a defensive stance and wait until the disabled skill comes back. With powerlock i just think you have access to a far more reliable form of shutdown, which although is not nearly as powerful as diversion, might have value for its reliability and the fact that with good ping a monk has no real defense against it.

The only drawback i see is that it requires mesmers to be more focused on a single character than they otherwise would be... since it requires actively interrupting a key skill rather than the cast and forget nature of diversion.

Then again we are seeing some more pblock mesmers in GvG, which trumps plock in many ways... so this idea maybe be moot point.

Riotgear · Apr 21, 2008, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Part of what makes Diversion work well isn't just that it's a really nasty effect when it works, but that the power of that effect deters casting for as long as the hex is in effect. It always provides some degree of disruption every time it lands.

In that sense, I don't think Power Lock is really competing with Diversion, it's competing with Power Leak. My take is that Power Leak hits the target's energy pool which equates to attacking their ability to do anything at all, as opposed to the effect being more dependent on the recharge of the specific ability being interrupted.

Generally speaking, the power of a skill disable goes up exponentially with the length of it. Once a key skill is lost, the job that skill was supposed to do gets done pretty inefficiently and the longer you're without it, the more at risk you are of blowing up. A +12 second disable doesn't quite put a team in that gutter of stability the way a +53 or even +20 does.

Oni Firestarter · Apr 21, 2008, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Diversion forces decision making, plock doesn't.

The beauty of diversion is that you can create strong plays, even when you dont divert skills by forcing TOUGH decisions.

You see a spike coming, you have diversion on you, what do you give up? The time it takes your brain to decide between which prots to throw away, could cost you dearly.

Do you divert your gale to stop a spike when you've heard your other monk call shame? Tough choice.

Against some sort of pressure build, you might need to make the choice to let something die to keep those precious heals in play.. etc etc.

Ultimately, diversion is in the list of skills that to me make this game fun to play:

Diversion
Gale
Bull's Strike
Shock
Prot Spirit
Spirit Bond
Dshot
Freezing Gust

Why on earth we would touch any of those skills with changes... baffles my mind. These are the skills that seperate the strong players from the weak.

Good diversion usage isn't just a matter of counting down skills or guessing, but its about understanding where you need to direct your "lockdown". Its keeping diversion pressure on a number of different characters - this forces them all to be looking out for you, and thinking about EVERY single cast they make, while still having the key skills you want to target in mind.

Its about understanding what skills are important at what times of the games. When to go after monk elites, and when to disable energy management, and when to force characters to freeze for 6 seconds.

Its about baiting characters into diversion with fake spikes or KDs. etc etc.

Its a skill that requires a ton of skill, and really, has a pretty reasonably pay-off.

la_cabra_de_vida · Apr 21, 2008, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Diversion is good for the game because it creates windows of opportunity, just like gale and blackout. Its real strength is the 6 second duration of either, "waste a skill, or wait it out." It shouldn't be nerfed.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Apr 21, 2008, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

The idea of power lock is premised on the fact that while diversion is clearly the more powerful skill in comparison to diversion (thats not whats being debated), how often during a match does a mesmer reap the benefits from its power while facing a very well organised and experienced team?

PLock gives you a 12 second disable, Diversion gives you a 60ish second disable.

Quote:

Then ask the question, IF i can disable WoH or RC with powerlock with some regularity (with the only defense vs powerlock being fast casts and bad ping), does that offer more to my team than when i have diversion?

Fake casting, casting when you know the mesmer isnt on you, etc.

Quote:

Im not saying this is a blanket replacement for diversion for all teams. I just think some teams out there adopt a far more aggressive pressure style of play which would benefit greatly from a regular disabling of WoH and RC than what you get from getting those rare lucky diversions off. I find that the effect of diversion diminishes the higher the quality of teams involved, especially with some teams even packing power return on their midline paras who camp on mesmers using diversion.

Thats why those teams run Dshot/Magebane Shot and back in LoD days occassionally ran glyph essence.

Quote:

Then again we are seeing some more pblock mesmers in GvG, which trumps plock in many ways... so this idea maybe be moot point.

PBlock is mostly seeing play because a lot of people run builds with virtually no off-monk defense right now as well as prot monk bars with 5-7 prot skills.

It has a nice side effect of being really good vs water eles which recently picked up in popularity too (btw power lock is actually very nice vs those).

Div · Apr 22, 2008, 05:30 AM // 05:30

I like diversion more than shame, just because you get to choose whether to burn a skill to save a target. Clicking shame sucks.

I Angra I · Apr 22, 2008, 02:26 PM // 14:26

I wish they would do one of these "test updates" that takes GoLE out of the game. Tired of it.

Patrick Smit · Apr 22, 2008, 03:52 PM // 15:52

GoLE is really not a problem, there is much worse around, like shadowstepping and 4 professsions

I Angra I · Apr 22, 2008, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

GoLE is really not a problem, there is much worse around, like shadowstepping and 4 professsions

It's the root of a lot of superpowered skillbars that have been recieving nerfs to other skills on the bars many many times now, when previously they never needed them.

Not saying other things like shadowsteps aren't a problem, though.

erk · Apr 25, 2008, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

I wish they would do one of these "test updates" that takes GoLE out of the game. Tired of it.

GoLE just lets carry something other than 5e skills on your bar, without it the meta would be screwed and countless skills would have to be energy buffed to get them back in the game at all. Understand that GoLE comes at a price, it takes up a precious skill slot. I hate having to carry it on my Necro, it completely ruins my secondary options, but it's the only way of running a Curses build at all cause they have been nerfed so stupidly hard.

Turbobusa · Apr 25, 2008, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Nerfing GoLE when the meta is at 3 warrior frontline, ouch.

Shuuda · Apr 25, 2008, 08:07 PM // 20:07

If they were to nerf GoLE (which is a good idea in my opinion) They would certainly have to improve other energy management skills (namely inspiration magic.)

Greedy Gus · Apr 25, 2008, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

GoLE just lets carry something other than 5e skills on your bar, without it the meta would be screwed

I hate having to carry it on my Necro, it completely ruins my secondary options, but it's the only way of running a Curses build at all cause they have been nerfed so stupidly hard.

Yeah the game was pretty terrible without having curse necros viable.